Romans 11 discussion
Just a reminder that there is an ongoing online Bible study on this site..just click on the comments section.. Here are the comments on Romans chapter 11..my hope is to have folks from all over the world jumping in and studying the Scripture together
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1. Howitzer May 12th, 2009 5:19 am :
1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
-God has not rejected Israel even with the advent of the church
-Paul has a Jewish heritage
-Elijah appealed to God against Israel– interesting position for a prophet
-God disagreed with Elijah when he said that all had turned away- it is interesting how in the midst of persecution you have a tendency to think that everyone is against you but in most cases that is probably not true.. God reserves a handful of faithful servants who have not bowed the knee to false gods
-God reserved a remnant
-at this present time there is a remnant
-the remnant is chosen by grace
-right standing with God is not by works
-if you could be in right standing by works, grace would not be grace or needed for that matter
2. Howitzer May 13th, 2009 5:34 am :
7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8 as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day.” 9 And David says: “May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them. 10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever.”
-the elect received what Israel as a nation sought
-those who were not elect were hardened
– God gave them a spirit of stupor (non seeing eyes, non hearing ears)
-???what does their table becoming a snare and trap, a stumbling block and retribution for them mean???
-???does eyes darkened and backs bent refer to captivity or enslavement in general???
-glad to be elect!!!!!
3. Marty M. May 15th, 2009 6:46 pm :
Do you believe that this reference to Israel is the literal reference to the nation of Israel? A gentlemen I know made this point in a recent study and I tend to think he is on to something. Sometimes when I read scripture about Israel, I tend to believe that Israel is a term used to define all believers (not necesarily here since Paul is not really talking about believers being Israel). I know in Romans Paul has spent a lot of time talking about Gentiles and Israel, and I certainly can be completely off base, but I struggle with Israel in the bible being limited to the space on the map that we define as Israel. What I am saying is that I think I as a believer may be Israel. Make sense?
4. Marty M. May 15th, 2009 6:47 pm :
Sorry, I do not think my question applies to this scripture. The references to Israel just made me think of the question.
5. The Howitzer May 17th, 2009 9:12 am :
there is no doubt that when the Scripture uses the term Israel refers to Israel the nation, sometimes it is used metaphorically to refer to God’s people (ie the nation of Israel or the church).. In this passage I think Paul is setting up the second reality that the church is beginning to supplant the nation as the primary vehicles of God’s grace to the world..
I hope you will keep joining in the discussion.. we ought to contact David and Jack and have an old school Henderson online Bible Study..
6. The Howitzer May 17th, 2009 9:23 am :
13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
-direction of Paul’s comments were to the gentiles
-Paul was apostles to the gentiles like Peter was apostle to Jews
-one of Paul’s motivation for talking about his ministry to the gentiles was to create an envy among jews and move them to salvation (they really liked being the chosen ones)
-their rejection of Jesus somehow was connected to reconciliation of the world
-their acceptance of the message will be akin to resurrection of chosen people
-if the first (Israel) is holy then whole (church?) is holy ???? not sure what this mean exactly????
7. Howitzer May 20th, 2009 4:12 am :
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
-Nation of Israel broken off the tree and wild olive branch (gentiles) grafted in
-gentile sharing in nourishment and boasting
-Paul exhorts them not to boast
-branches broken off because of unbelief
-gentiles stand by faith
-response is humility and fear.. no arrogance
-if God does not spare natural branches will not spare wild branches
-in a nutshell I think this passage is not talking about individual salvation (branches broken off) but is rather talking about the reality that God’s special people (branches) has changed from Israel to Church.. the Jews call all along was to be a blessing to the nations so that they would be grafted in .. but they became arrogant and grew in unbelif and did not do that.. ultimately they rejected Jesus so God symbolically cast them aside for unbelief and grafted the church (including jews and gentiles) in to the tree to be his representative on the earth… we should not become arrogant like the jews did but rather be humble and do our job
8. Howitzer May 25th, 2009 5:54 am :
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
-God is considered both kind and stern… sounds like a dad to me
-He was stern to Israel
-He was kind to Church (or Gentiles).. not sure who you is
-if Jews do not persist in unbelief they will be grafted back in
-if Gentiles were grafted in from wild olive tree.. how much easier will Jews be grafted into their own olive tree
9. Howitzer May 30th, 2009 5:04 am :
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
-there is a mystery about Israel
-there is a temptation for gentiles to be conceited about being grafted in while Israel experiences a hardening
-Israels hardening is a partial one and only last until the full number of the Gentiles has come in
-all Israel will be saved (what does that mean???)
-delivers will come FROM Zion and will turn godlessness away from Jacob (when???) (2nd Coming???)
-the covenant is related to taking away the sins of of Israel
-the thing that strikes me in this is that God is still very much interested in Israel.. as a gentile member of the church I hear the warning about not being conceited
10.Howitzer May 30th, 2009 5:28 am :
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
-Jews are enemies as far as the gospel is concerned
-Jews are loved because of the patriarchs
-God’s call and gifts are irrevocable
-gentiles received mercy BECAUSE of Jew disobedience..
note: it is important to note here that the Jews call was never just to salvation and being God’s holy people but rather they were blessed to be a blessing to the nations gen 12.. the thing that got taken away was being the chief vehicle of God’s blessing to the nations
-the church is called to bless the jews.. God loves both groups
-God has bound all men to disobedience so that he might show mercy on them all*** this is quite an idea.. we are stuck in a system of disobedience because of the fallen nature of man. that helps us see our need for God and he delivers us by mercy.. man!
11. Howitzer May 31st, 2009 5:08 am :
33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! 34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” 35 “Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?” 36 For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
-we are rich if we know the wisdom of God (our wisdom in knowing him or his wisdom???)
-we are rich if we have a knowledge of God
-not just riches but deep riches
-His judgments are unsearchable
-His paths (ways) can’t be traced out
-no one knows completely the mind of the Lord
-God does not need a counselor or an advise giver
-God owes nothing to no one.. he has never been beholden to pay back because all things source from Him
-everything is from him
-everything made through him
-everything in alignment to him
-To him be the glory forever! Amen.